I disagree with Loraan's survival being a mystery. He was dead already. What's the mystery? The only thing that is strange is that he died the second time, but as for that we've got the addition of dark water, which probably makes the difference. (equivalent of a stake through the heart?)- Attjen

I would say that the fact Loraan was undead before his encounter with Vlad is speculation--on Vlad's part. It is clear that he is undead AFTER the encounter, but not clear at all if this was true before the case, or perhaps as a direct result of the events in Taltos. --Majikjon

I'm confused. Where does Vlad even say that Loraan was undead before Athyra?

The only conversation that I can find about him is between Vlad and Kiera in Orca:

Kiera: "I thought he was pretty permanently dead"
Vlad: "Take it up with Morrolan. Or rather with Blackwand."

-- Davdi

I'm being flippant. It amuses me how things are worded as 'survived' when the fact of the matter is he is certainly 'dead' in at least one sense of the word both before and after Savn hits him with Morganti. The simplest explanation to me as to why he came back for Athyra has always been that he was dead and undead before. Everything else is too philosophical, and that's why I've put it on Speculation. - Attjen

You know, the exact quote always reminds me that we really don't know if Blackwand hit Loraan or not. - Attjen

Not that this proves anything, but Paarfi's descriptions of Loraan meeting up with Grita in VoA do not include any hints that he was undead at this point. Now this is well before Vlad's encounter with him (240 years or so), and he may have beome undead during that span--or Paarfi might have just failed to note that Loraan was undead during the Grita meeting (which seems a rather important omission, unless he just didn't know about it).
What's more telling, to me, is that Vlad himself makes no mention of suspecting the Loraan is undead during the encounter in Taltos--and, later, it's his conversation with Savn about Loraan still being around that clues him into the fact that Loraan is undead at that point. I see two possible explanations for this:
a) Vlad figures that being undead beforehand was protection against Blackwand (how would he know this?)
b) Vlad figures that whatever his status beforehand, he must be undead afterwards.
This last point raises its own questions. Why couldn't Loraan have been revivified and just simply be alive? Assuming his soul was not destroyed by Blackwand, by whatever mechanism this was made possible, shouldn't a competent sorcerer have stuffed his soul back into his revivified body later?
And even if Vlad is right about Loraan having to be undead afterwards, how did Vlad learn this? He certainly doesn't seem to know a lot about the operation and behavior of Great Weapons--even now that he has his own. He seems to have very selective knowledge on this point. --Majikjon 17:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

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